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u/joshooah Mar 19 '20
So are they setting up Picard being injured and transfer his mind to the new synthetic body that Maddox was working on...
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u/deagletime1 Mar 19 '20
Or they’re going to reinstall Data from a backup copy on a new 3d printed body.
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u/Shawnj2 Mar 19 '20
there is no backup copy of data, the copy from the end of nemesis was mostly incomplete in universe, and out of universe Brent Spiner said he wouldn't come back if they brought data back
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u/AdamHulten916 Mar 19 '20
Remember that in the first few episodes it’s revealed that data’s memories could be reconstituted from a single of his Neurons........
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u/BruteSentiment Mar 19 '20
Too obvious for this writing team to not be being used as a red herring.
Saga’s gift to Raffi that “Fixes Things”. That’s how they save Picard.
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u/texasrodeoguy Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 19 '20
Yes but how ? Total Synth(?) renew or repair the organic- brain disease
Either way S1E9 was just wow!
And a question: the data neuron that the Synths were created with/by / whatever- wouldn’t all the Synth’s know from Data that Picard is a good guy or their advocate?
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u/keane121 Mar 19 '20
Possibly. During the intro sequence, we see fragments being added to Picard’s face which to me implies he may be synthetic or heading towards your suggestion.
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u/CreepingCoins Mar 20 '20 edited Mar 20 '20
I think Picard will have the chance to transfer himself to the golem and cure his brain disease, but he'll pass so Thad can be brought back instead.
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u/dinglepumpkin Mar 19 '20
Interesting. The title I know from a classical painting , which thematically relates to the notion of Utopia and the realization that death exists there, too. That is, all things must end. Mortality is inescapable.
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u/CmdShelby Mar 19 '20
I hope it doesn't mean that biologicals are coming to an end. I hope it's just a ref to the season's or ZV's end...
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u/viverx Mar 19 '20
Ok the optimistic side of me think the message is some kind of synthetic ethics check in thats its designed to exploit flaws in AI programing that would be dangerous for evolved AI in general or possibly be a organic trap for AI though i think that would go against the Star Treks ideals.
I do see some contradiction of ideas in this episode with the idea that synthetic life evolution would be the extinction/extermination of organics and in the same episode introduce the idea of organic mind transfer.....because if organics saw synthetic life as evolution that is the next step not the end but its future. And while synthetic does mean artificial the word's greek origins do mean to bring together.
Also crazy ending would be Q showing up after the beacon is up and putting the synthetics on trial for being a savage race.
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u/bardbrain Mar 19 '20
So let's say the device is designed as a safety test. If either organics OR synths activate it, they are destroyed. It's a morality check.
So what if a Borg activates it?
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u/orbitn Mar 19 '20
The big bad comes, then the borg transwarp in with twenty thousand ships, link up like in the old Star Trek Armada games (i think that was something they had, it was a long time ago..) and a few supercubes the size of planets wipe the floor with everyone, with seven of nine at the helm.
We are borg.
ok now time to turn the 15 year old part of my brain off and get some coffee so the 39 year old brain can take over.
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u/CreepingCoins Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 19 '20
You have to wonder why the Mystery Synths are waiting for a signal if they've actually been watching the entire time. Might be that it's a door that needs to be opened from our side, if they're going for a cosmic horror thing.
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u/orbitn Mar 19 '20
The whole thing reminds me of B5: thirdspace.
"One mistake.. one mistake out of so many.."
I for one, would like to see Star Trek explore it's own bent on "the first ones". It'd be a good way to incorporate something new into the mythos. We haven't seen much of the preservers, or the aliens from the chase (if they aren't one and the same) or if the aliens from the chase eventually became the dominion (the makeup effects were the same, but this would be at odds with them being the preservers.. maybe). Of course there's the Q but they've not explicitly.. you know what, i guess we have seen plenty of first ones. I retract my agrument..
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u/thegrizzlyjear Mar 19 '20
With all of the Borg stuff earlier , I wouldn't be surprised if the mystery synths are somehow related to the collective, or in fact ARE the Collective , with what we know about the DQ Borg being a retroactive smokescreen.
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Mar 20 '20
THIS! I came here to post the same thing (did above/below somewhere). With one more puzzle piece. The Admonition narrative said that artificial life is humanity's attempt to achieve perfection. That's basically the goal of the borg. So either the borg show up to assimilate the artificial life, which is closer to perfection, or an entirely new collective is born as a stepping stone into joining the 'club' of the more advanced intergalactic collective. Could be kinda cool to see borg queen Seven of Nine vs borg queen Sudra. But now I'm getting into fan fic territory.
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u/SpaceCampDropOut Mar 20 '20
Maybe it’s their version of Warp Drive/First Contact. Once an AI learns to call.
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u/jomag12 Mar 19 '20
So excited to see Brent Spiner, and he looked like he was having a blast! Theres gonna be some epic shit going down
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u/jomag12 Mar 19 '20
Also...i cant believe i was excited to see a Borg Cube come outa nowhere like that. So much badass all around...
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u/orbitn Mar 19 '20
It was also sort of hilarious to see the orchid drag picards ship down.. but the borg ship just had this comparatively tiny orchid, stuck on it's corner, flapping in the wind..
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Mar 19 '20
And yet it did nothing at all? That cube has been a very long and disappointing tease.
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Mar 19 '20
27 cubic kilometers is the size of a Borg cube. For shits and giggles lets call it 27 metric tonnes. If that hit a m class planet then it would be a planet killer. Worst then any comet strike earth ever had.
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u/Tomb55 Mar 19 '20
27? So less than an average semi truck?
2,700,000 tonnes maybe
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u/a2scotty Mar 19 '20
I think it was the flower contraptions that cushioned its fall, like it protected Rios' ship. Except the Borg cube being much heavier was harder to stop without some damage. It actually saved what it could.
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u/intecknicolour Mar 20 '20
we're gonna pretend the flowers had airbrakes on them alright.
Alex Kurtzman
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u/SteveThe14th Mar 19 '20
Yeah, it was super strange how they hopped over this with a few smoke plumes emerging from over the hills, that thing would crack mountains.
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u/ckwongau Mar 19 '20
Lore Theory
Dr Altan Inigo Soong is Lore
He said
My father had me but he created Data , in fact he never let me forget
That 's got me thinking , he is really Lore
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u/bardbrain Mar 19 '20
As different ones have pointed out:
L-O-R-E is Basque for "Flower". (Not said like the English "Lore" but spelled like it.)
And "Inigo" is a Basque name.
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u/Creativation Mar 19 '20
"Dr Altan Inigo Soong" as played by Spiner had Lore's snappiness. It definitely felt very Loresque.
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u/railmaniac Mar 20 '20
My name is Inigo Soong. You killed my father. Prepare to die.
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Mar 20 '20
What really made me think this is the “no they won’t!” Line. That was 100% lore in the way he said it.
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u/ckwongau Mar 19 '20
i see the other sister , she has a bit of "Lore" in her
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u/CreepingCoins Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 19 '20
I definitely picked up on some Lore in Brent Spiner's acting. Nothing obvious like a facial twitch, but the cadence, his mannerisms, definitely. Not to mention how he manipulates Dr. Jurati. I'm 100% convinced Soong Jr. is Lore. No question in my mind.
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u/dravenonred Mar 19 '20
"My father had me, but he also made Data, and he never let me forget it."
That is a 100% Lore line from the supposed "A.I. Soong" (really laying it on thick there)
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u/imisstoronto Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 19 '20
I felt the same. It felt like Lore.
It could also be Spiner's default "non-Data" acting.
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u/BruteSentiment Mar 19 '20
Also in how he called the other synths “Kids”. It just seemed condescending to them, which is definitely something Lore was like as opposed to Dr. Soong.
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u/Galvano Mar 19 '20
To me it was really the way he said something like "My dad build Data after he had me and didn't let me forget it".
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u/kalsikam Mar 20 '20
I can see Lore fake aging himself
This would be epic
I wonder if the Cube will repair itself in time to join the battle..
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u/RichardYing Mar 19 '20
"What do you need?"
"Long-range scanners"
"Oh my... err..."
"How many?"
"218 Warbirds."
"218. That's not so bad."
"True, you only have to worry about the first 109."
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u/BruteSentiment Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 19 '20
4 Identical Queens now, out of the 5 from Data’s hand?
Jana (Deceased)
Dahj (Deceased)
Soji
Sutra
And now...who is the 5th? Clearly, even if they are developed as “Twins”, they reuse aesthetics for future bodies. Someone is waiting for the next episode. Maybe the unimprinted synth.
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u/WhiteSquarez Mar 19 '20
Seven?
It's almost certain that she is going to retake the cube and become a "good" Borg Queen now.
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Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 19 '20
The biggest compliment I can pay to this episode is it really left me guessing as to how things are going to play out in the finale.
A lot of the goodbye’s felt final.
Will Jurati help save Picard and co., but die in the process? Will someone besides Soong transfer into the golem? Will Starfleet show up to save the day? Will Soji turn to the dark side?
Will Picard make it out of this season alive?!? And when he gets his mind transferred to the golem will Tom Hardy play young JL?????!!!!!!!!??????? (JK- or am I???!!!)
To quote Data... I mean, Sutra: FASCINATING.
This episode really cemented a lot of the modern parallels the series has been hinting at involving hate speech, being reactionary, and mob mentality. And I really appreciate the final conflict seems to involve a moral conflict as well as a physical one.
That’s what Trek has really excelled at since its inception.
Huge compliments to the set design this episode, as the aesthetics of the synthetic community felt ripped right out of a TNG episode. Especially loved the Data by way of Rihanna look Soji number 2 was rocking. Also, that fx shot of the Borg cube coming out of the wormhole was superfly. As was the mirroring between the Data/Lore relationship in Soji/Sutra.
My only complaint is that the direction felt a little wonky.
Looking at his resume, Akiva Goldsman has directed other series episodes before, but I felt his shot composition and editing left something to be desired. He seemed to cut away to reaction shots or scenic shots instead of letting the actors and their performances breath (Trek rule NUMBER ONE: Never cut away from Patrick Stewart when he’s making a speech). It felt like a Dahj, ehm, I mean dodge.
Anyway, I’m really hopeful they stick the landing with the finale. Picard season one is already shaping up to easily be one of the most consistently good first seasons any Trek show has ever had.
Excelsior (class)! And bring on the finale!
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u/legolasxvi Mar 19 '20
Borg cube to the rescue!
10 seconds later...
Awwwwwww.... Boooooo.... Lol
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u/kalsikam Mar 20 '20
Would have been cool for it to get some shots off at the Romulan ship at least
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u/greenking2000 Mar 21 '20
The Borg really have just gotten weaker and weaker since inception in TNG. At the Wolf 359 destroying 128/130 ships
Then at the battle of sector 001 the federation got better and lost a lot less ships
But now? 4 orchids can destroy one. And even if they tried to slow its descent that should’ve destroyed half of the planet. Cube’s are fucking massive
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u/dv_ Mar 19 '20
Here's a speculation:
The origin of the Borg has never been defined in canon. Also, IIRC it is not even clear how old the Borg really are.
What if the Borg were originally an attempt to find a solution that does not require anyone - synthetic or biological - to die? A merge between these two worlds would have obviated the need for any genocide. And then, something went horribly wrong, resulting in the unrelenting civilization killers that are the Borg.
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u/wumpuslord Mar 19 '20
Eh we kind of do know these things, or at least have a general idea that doesn’t line up with that. The vaadwaur in the voyager episode dragons teeth knew the borg when they had only assimilated a few systems, and weren’t seen as a major threat. They give us a time line on the borg being in that state in the 15th century.
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u/WhiteSquarez Mar 19 '20
How cool would it be to see a 15th Century Borg, as opposed to how they look now?
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u/ckwongau Mar 19 '20
Altan Inigo Soong , i wonder if he was the boy who drew the picture of the Crystal entity's attack in Dr Soong's lab .
We knew after the attack , some kid was in Dr Soong's lab after the Attack ( year 2338) , and drew picture of the Attack , and that picture was left on the wall of the lab .
I always wonder what happen to the kid who drew the picture
The yr is 2399 , Altan Inigo Soong is about at least mid 60 something
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u/b-rat Mar 19 '20
A.I. Soong huh?
I'm liking the Lore theory so far
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u/imisstoronto Mar 19 '20
And he said something like "he had me but still made Data" which hints at Lore. He always hated the fact that Soong created Data even though he already had Lore. He hated Data because he felt he was never good enough.
Correction: "My father had me, but he created Data. A fact he never let me forget". Sounds pretty unhappy about it.
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u/Anabel_Westend_ Mar 19 '20
Hello, my name is Altan Inigo Soong. I killed my own father. Prepare to die.
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u/risk_is_our_business Mar 19 '20
I thought Juliana said they didn’t have biological children.
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u/WelfOnTheShelf Mar 19 '20
But that Juliana was actually an android so maybe her memories were falsified.
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u/pobautista Mar 20 '20
Where are the constant electrical storms?
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u/greenking2000 Mar 21 '20
We saw them when they first saw that planet. But only on part of it so maybe a seasonal thing?
Or “What electrical storms?” - Alex Kurtzman
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u/PlayedUOonBaja Mar 20 '20
I could totally go for a Seven spinoff with at least one other cast member from DS9 or Voyager along for the ride.
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u/MrMallow Mar 20 '20
Seven rebuilding the borg cube as the queen of the XBs and Captain Harry Kim is her federation contact.
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u/ckwongau Mar 19 '20
Alliance of higher Synthetic
I wonder some entity of the alliance are machine we may have encounter before
like the machine world who modified V'Ger from "Star Trek :the motion picture " , or Enterprise D's offspring from S7 ep 23
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u/SailorDeath Mar 19 '20
I had a feeling I was gonna be right about the Romulans misinterpreting the message and that it wasn't meant for organic brains and I got a feeling the synthetic race is the one that enhanced v'ger and I also think that same race came into contact with what became of Ileia and Decker. I also think this is a test to see if the synth life is ready to join them, that is acceptance and coexistence of both synthetic and organic life forms. otherwise they'd have done what control tried to do and that is wipe out all organic life. They didn't, instead they sit and watch. Much like the Q I'd say with a little meddling here and there.
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Mar 19 '20
If they REALLY want to summon the Reapers, they need to take the Citadel first.
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u/wumpuslord Mar 19 '20
From the next episodes previews, it looks like they’re building the transmitter. Space orchids reminded me of citadel - it is a bit much at this point, someone is definitely doing some mass effect references.
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u/Scoxxicoccus Mar 19 '20
Why would JL simply accept that this newly introduced Soong spawn is really who/what he claims to be?
Why would anyone with Picard's knowledge trust any self described "mad scientist" named Soong without confirmation? They and their synthetic progeny are famous for their devious long game plots, hidden (even from themselves) agendas and body switches.
I suppose it's just a plot propelling choice the writers made but IMHO this omission mars an otherwise excellent episode. Couldn't they have managed a quick tricorder scan or physical test?
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u/WhiteSquarez Mar 19 '20
Yeah, I feel like Picard should have known almost immediately that they were influenced by Lore's moral compass, especially with the touching chat he and Soji had about Data in last week's episode.
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_RIDGES Mar 21 '20
Picard is playing 7th dimensional chess in order to protect Soji. I doubt he wants her to return to an abusive home, there’s just the whole Romulan thing they have to deal with immediately.
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u/Bruce-- Mar 20 '20
I had many, many questions like that while watching. I wouldn't call it an excellent episode. Lots of stuff happened, though, to be sure.
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u/gayboynudist Mar 19 '20
Can someone explain to me why the Mars attack was so urgent for Romulans? Couldn't they wait just a little to save their people first?
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u/YnrohKeeg Mar 19 '20
Maybe they’re so fanatical that they engineered the supernova to create the disaster, knowing Starfleet would assist, and then sabotaged THAT rescue because it would clear them of suspicion. Romulans have never been overly concerned with the welfare of their own citizenry. Why not kill a few million to “save the universe”? They’d think of it as a noble sacrifice, and those who died would be heroes of the state.
So, the mars attack wasn’t “urgent”... it was just phase 2 of The Plan.
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u/gayboynudist Mar 19 '20
Why did Dahj have an image of Picard as a friend but Soji didn't?
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u/terriblehuman Mar 19 '20
I’m assuming because Maddox put it in her mind since she would be working on Earth, and that would be where Picard was. I’d imagine Maddox knew Picard was the only person he could be certain would be sympathetic to a synth and have the resources to help.
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u/Pellaeonthewingedleo Mar 20 '20 edited Mar 20 '20
This Ep. was confusing, because it twists the plot again to the point where everyone is in the wrong and on the other side the Romulans were right
But most importantly: That guy is Lore! There are enough little hints, the envy towards Data, him playing from behind the scenes, the little nod to mindtransfer. If not I will be really pissed.
The Ep. was really engaging and that was good
Ok, the new Warbirds are really small, fitting for a crumbled Empire
EDIT: Can somebody explain how someone can learn mindmelding? Especially a machine?
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u/anima-vero-quaerenti Mar 20 '20
I think the new androids are different degrees of cyborgs. It’s implied Soji has an organic brain with an integrated positronic neural network.
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u/National-Salt Mar 20 '20
Him being Lore would be cool. But from a production standpoint, and considering the show is geared towards new viewers as well as Star Trek fans, revealing this in the final episode having not referenced his charcter once all season might be a bit too much to hope for.
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u/BruteSentiment Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 19 '20
Okay, what are the less obvious dangling plot threads? (My theories at the end, if you want to read them.)
The most obvious is Seven-of-Nine with the Borg cube, and the XBs.
Secondarily, all the Borg sucked out of the Artifact. They showed that in the “Previously in....” montage, but did not refer to it in the episode. I wonder if Seven had them latch onto the Romulan ships as the tool that will even the odds.
Captain Crandall. Come on, that is still far too obvious to not come to fruition. His ship is called the Inside Straight. An inside straight in Poker is when you get the winning card on the draw, and it fills the middle of your straight (lower odds than if you got drew on the outside, in which case you have double the odds, getting the top or bottom).
Picard’s message to Starfleet.
The synth body that is not used. Who gets it? Data? Picard? Another Soji-sister?
The dream sequence with Data had an impossible hand with five identical queens. I’ve been theorizing this is how many Soji-sisters are out there...and we’ve now found out about four, leaving one to go.
Saga’s tool that “fixes” things. You just have to use your imagination.
EDIT: Forgot 8: Who was Beautiful Flower, and where is his twin?
Bonus: Do only beings with physical bodies count as synths? What about the Emergency Holoclan?
Bonus: Why do some synths have gold skin and eyes, while others have natural skin colors and eyes?
Count on those Borg Drones being the key pawns in the good guys win. The unused synth body is obvious for Picard, so it certainly won’t happen. Instead, I expect Saga’s tool will cure, or at least put off, Picard’s discussion. And I expect Captain Crandall (arriving with at least one of the Rikers) will be the moment that will blow some minds and be the motivation for whatever Season 2 will contain. I don’t think he’s a regular from TNG. I still think someone from Discovery, living in hiding.
Oh, wait, I forgot Lore, didn’t I? Nope. We met him this episode. Soong’s son? Please. Definitely Lore, with a new aged skin.
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u/orbitn Mar 19 '20
Saga’s tool that “fixes” things. You just have to use your imagination.
I swear, that thing looks familiar. I can't put my finger on it, but it does.
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u/RichardYing Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 19 '20
Space orchids.
Seven re-connected to the Cube.
Soong's son.
Sutra.
Other species teaching themselves mindmeld.
Admonition with audio.
Alliance of synthetic life beyond the boundaries of space and time.
Spot II.
Lore-like deception.
So much... WOW. I need to rewatch.
FASCINATING!
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u/al57115 Mar 19 '20
So..I guess Starfleet security doesn't do background checks?
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u/Tasty_Toast_Son Mar 19 '20
Starfleet security had always shown itself to be comically bad, it wouldn't surprise me.
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Mar 20 '20
Did anyone else notice how the Admonition narrative said humans created artificial life in their attempts to achieve perfection? With all of the borg themes, I can't help but wonder if that's where this is headed. And apparently these higher beings are a kind of 'collective' across galaxies. Maybe this is the club the borg were trying to get into in their search for perfection.
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u/ayamrik Mar 20 '20
Imagining the Borg as the little brother that wants to play together with the big kids. "Oh look who is here again, little Borgie. Hey Borgie, have you finally cleaned up your galaxy so you can come out to play?" "I am the Borg. Let me play with you! ... Resistance is futile..."
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u/motti886 Mar 20 '20
I posted this in another thread here, but I wanted to comment in this thread as well for more visibility:
Something to consider: the names of the other synths on the planet. I recalled "Saga" pretty clearly after watching, but was wanting to double check if I heard "Arcana" correctly. After reviewing the cast of the episode on IMDB, I see there is also a "Rune" and a "Codex". Very interesting. It seems like these names have a theme (words that are far more "Lore" flavored than "Data" flavored), and come in related pairs.
Digging around some more, it seems like ""Jana"and "Sutra" appear to have a similar connection.
I do not think this was a coincidence.
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u/bardbrain Mar 19 '20
Are the organics from the Admonition the Old Ones from "What Are Little Girls Made Of?" as well, do you think?
I feel Ruk and his speech ties into the Admonition. He talks about how irrational organics began deactivating androids when they realized they didn't die.
"Catspaw" also referenced "old ones" who fled the galaxy. People have resisted they are the same but these old ones could manipulate matter.
My basic take is that the Old Ones fled the galaxy after the ancient synth crisis. They left behind the Admonition and created the Galactic Barriers for containment.
I bring all of this up because dropping the Galactic Barrier would be tremendously meaningful for Star Trek, particularly as means of faster than warp travel now exist. We could be headed towards travel beyond the Milky Way, which Trek has never done before.
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u/bardbrain Mar 19 '20
In light support of this: Star Trek Online planned a Catspaw themed Halloween yearly event to start last year and they DID delay it a year after meeting with the Picard writers.
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u/jlculbert Mar 19 '20
Are some of the Capallian synths played by the same actor who played F8 in the attack?
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u/aspen0414 Mar 20 '20
If the admonition is intended for synths and drives organics mad, what do we think that suggests about the Romulans who are able to survive it? I feel like there’s a plot twist hidden in here.
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u/YYZYYC Mar 20 '20
The whole show each persons face one by one sequence before walking into android village seemed a little odd
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u/miles_dallas Mar 19 '20
I guess this is a placeholder for when the episode drops? They really should go ahead and drop the rest of the series so we don't have to wait while we're cooped up at home.
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u/Zadama Mar 19 '20
I'm curious as to whether they're going to tie in the Tkon/Iconians somehow. Separated by 400,000 years, both of their civilizations were exterminated in events that haven't really been explained - perhaps both were destroyed by this synthetic force in similar circumstances? The Tkon sun went supernova (like Romulus), and it seems as though the Admonition implies that worlds have been orbitally bombarded (like Iconia, and now Mars).
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u/ssort Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 19 '20
I wonder if this whole story is based loosely on Immortal Coil of the Star Trek The Next Generation books that had Data as the main center of the plot investigating the destruction of a next generation Soong type android that was being developed.
The story was based upon an AI conglomerate that kept themselves hidden from the universe at large since they were virtually immortal. In that story they called upon many different episodes of star trek that had AI in them, along with another immortal Flint, from the TOS episode Requiem for Methuselah, in which they found out that flint was an immortal, that had lived under many names over the millennia including Brams, Davinci and many others.
The AI callbacks includes many different episodes from the various series, from TOS to TNG. This includes the TOS episode with Dr. Corby and the ancient robot Ruk, the M5 episode where an AI took over the enterprise, and many other AI sentience that appeared in the series over the years, up to and including the exo-bots that Data found out that was sentient.
It was one of the best Star Trek books I've ever read, no I take that back, it was one of the best books overall that I've ever read regardless.
It really was a love fest for any Star Trek fan as they bring in so many elements from different episodes that as a fan, its blowing the top of your head off every few chapters with callbacks to previous episodes of the various series.
If you get a chance, please read it, even if I'm wrong and it has nothing to do with the Picard series, you wont be disappointed, but based upon the revelations from E9 about who made the Admonition, I would say that at the least, the writers have read this book and drew inspiration from it.
And if it is, we are in for a treat as the ending was one that had me glued to my seat reading it as it was really something.
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Mar 20 '20
I fully think there is going to be a final twist with the Borg. There wasnt really any reason for them to be in the season so I think they will play a part. Obviously 7 and the XPs will save the day but I'm wondering if the Borg has a connection with the AI Federation and we may learn of their origin.
Also, they asked Soji if she completed her mission. Did we ever find out what that was? Another connection with the Borg
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u/alienrefugee51 Mar 20 '20
Her mission was to find out who was really behind the attack on Mars and the ban?
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u/Terra-Em Mar 20 '20
Another reason why A.I. Soong is most likely Lore in "old skin..tech" is how the first thing he did to Picard is to admire his old skin, wrinkles and all.
The clincher for me was "My father had me but he created Data. A fact he never let me forget."
I look forward to the finale.
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Mar 20 '20
I don't know. I'm not vibing with the storyline. Adding onto data's story.. still I'm enjoying it don't get me wrong...I just think they keep going on a bit much.. data..Soong...lore..b4..now another..bit much
What baffles me is where'd the romulans get these updated warbirds?
My final thought and most people's want I think...
When are we seeing the federation get it on
I for one am literally waiting to see them arrive ..we all know that's coming..predictable but I'm all in...it's a constant tease....I'm enjoying it as is but let's be real we are waiting for a u.s.s something and yes I'll chop my balls off if we don't see enterprise before Picard ends in season whatever they go to
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Mar 19 '20
Anyone else think this might tie into star trek the motion picture and V'ger?
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u/Tomb55 Mar 19 '20
I hope it does, for me that’s one of the biggest unanswered questions of Trek.
Either that or the whale probe.
(And don’t @ me with “but this book says” because I don’t care)
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u/atad2much Mar 19 '20
I hate to say this but I thought this episode was really dumb. There were so many cringe-worthy elements that I just found it hard to get engaged.
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u/abacaxidotcaxi Mar 19 '20
Help!! Why was Data in the admonishment?
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u/mpetey123 Mar 19 '20
I think just to show the evolution of synthetic life through a known character.
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Mar 20 '20
Chabon said he was just in the receiver's interpretation and not a literal part of the message.
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u/TechnicalVault Mar 20 '20
Has anyone else had any thoughts on the twin angle? It’s not just Dahj and Soji, it’s all of them. Why does every synth come as a pair? Could it be because Data and Lore were a pair? They may not have been created at the same time but they certainly shared an appearance. Also what happened to the twin of the other male synth that got shot by the captain?
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u/Vicinety Mar 20 '20
Maybe Lore believes that without a twin, a synth is incomplete or lonely. Maybe he isn’t making the body for himself, but to recreate Data so that he has a living twin just like the other Synths. I thought it was weird that he would recreate Data’s cat. They could have made any cat - why did it have to be Spot? Why did Soji, Dahl, Sutra and Jana have to look like the “daughter” from Data’s painting? Maybe the preoccupation with Data belonged to Lore - not Maddox.
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u/IonTichy Mar 20 '20
Overall I liked the episode, but the last 10 minutes seemed weirdly rushed and overly clichéd...it felt like "ok, we are fullfilling the prophecy now..picard, off to your timeout area".
They could have built up better towards the final exchange of arguments (which also felt rather weak) on which course to take.
Especially Soji felt totally out of character, even if she is kind of still searching for her personality.
Her last minute turnaround and "betrayal" of Sutra before the final moment of summoning the super-synths is too obvious.
I really hope I am wrong on this one tho :)
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u/chrisjamesdrew Mar 21 '20
What is Picard talking about when he says "Poor Hugh. It must have taken appallling brutality to turn such a gentle soul to violence"?
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u/thelastarkadian Mar 20 '20
I told you they were going to go full Battle Star Galactica! (Previous Sub post)
These sentient Cyl.....Synths don't want nobody telling them whether they should exist or not!
They've been told by ancient uber synths in a previous cycle ("this has happened before it will happen again") This is the way. Time to kick ass and be free.
Gaius Bal....Son of Song is gonna help too. Conflicted Final Five Soji who has just been switched on doesn't know whether to hold onto her fake warm humanity or the cold Logic of her "Model" Sister.
I'm enjoying this episode of BSG alot!
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u/Par36 Mar 19 '20
Ok... Can we say those who said this was not a great show were wrong? Sweet **** I'm heart broken 10 is the number shows go with and not 13...
At least a second rewatch is needed.
Also piss off CBS with prequels. I need post DS9 void filled.
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u/Pellaeonthewingedleo Mar 20 '20
We all need President Garak and Ambassador Bashir negotiating Cardassia joining the Federation
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u/WhiteSquarez Mar 19 '20
Another forgotten about plot point is all the 70-second phone calls Soji and Dahj made to their mom. I expected that to come up this week and was a little disappointed that it wasn't.
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u/dm_magic Mar 19 '20
Wasn’t it established that these calls were S&D receiving instructional downloads?
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u/YnrohKeeg Mar 19 '20
And possibly uploading progress reports on their respective missions.
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u/Aurondarklord Mar 20 '20
So we're leading into a confrontation between organic and synthetic life...if only we conveniently had a bunch of people around who could act as a bridge between the two because they were half organic and half synthetic....<.<
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u/puckbeaverton Mar 20 '20
A million great things to talk about but only one complaint stands out...
So you just pretended an android can mindmeld a human?
MMK.
I can look over it though. That was amazing.
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u/FreeRangeThinker Mar 20 '20
The giveaway that it’s Lore was that weird shit he said to Dr. Agnes Jurati.
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u/Ballentino Mar 20 '20
So I'm just going to say what is going on in my brain
Soong is Lore, IDK, I just 'feel' it or at the very least Golden whatsherface is having been brought back using his neurons as she's very much not daughter of Data.
More importantly and frustratingly, Synth Picard is happening isn't it.
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u/EaglesPDX Mar 20 '20
I think so too, Lore is what drove Maddox off the planet. He needed Maddox to transfer to the new artificial and Maddox somehow escaped with Sohj and Dahj, sending them on their missions.
Jurati get's Picard into the body instead.
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u/kreskenn Mar 20 '20
The space battle with Narek was very good imho. Easy to follow, and very nicely balanced.
The Bord Cube arrival tends to eclipse that.
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u/YYZYYC Mar 19 '20
Not bad
-But I was seriously confused about the Borg cube at first , like did it crash? It just had a flower flap around the corner. Where the flower ships there to protect and wrap around Rios ship? And then finally they mentioned oh ya that massive cube crashed over there too.....
-Dr Soong has a secret son we never heard about?
-A throwing star trinket through the eyeball is fatal? For an android? Wouldn’t even be fatal for a human
-So who gets the android body. And why do we call it a golem? Why not call it Katra receptacle as that would be more in line with Star Trek and the androids knowledge of Vulcan culture rather than something that sounds more fantasy game of thrones lord of the rings like.
-218 Romulan Warbirds....yet we haven’t seen a functional romulan government and their people appear to be in shambles living like refugees. Why did they need help evacuating 14 years ago if they have a big fleet still.
-How did the small super secret within the secret tal shiar folks, convince the rest of the romulans to send a massive fleet to massacre a planet they have never heard of before, meanwhile there empire is in shambles and people scattered and living like refugees etc
-Picard passing the torch 7 of 9 and Elf sword boy to be saviours of the galaxy seems kinda off to me. Like maybe that should be Riker coming out of retirement or whoever is Captain of the Enterprise now. Rather than some vigilante ex Borg and sword boy and a hulk of a cube
-All that talk about saving the androids by leaving in Rios ship instead of calling in the magic super super secret advanced androids....but no one mentions hey maybe let’s try and use the Borg cube and get it going again to fight off the romulans?
-A super secret intergalactic android race sounds cool but it’s hard to wonder why we haven’t seen Q show up at this point?
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u/TheBossMan5000 Mar 20 '20
Soong's son is most definitely just Lore in a new (older and human looking) body. He's even building new bodies.
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u/Pellaeonthewingedleo Mar 20 '20
-218 Romulan Warbirds....yet we haven’t seen a functional romulan government and their people appear to be in shambles living like refugees. Why did they need help evacuating 14 years ago if they have a big fleet still.
These Warbirds are rather small, judging from the last shot not more than 7 decks and maybe 40m wingspan. The D'deridex-class had 43+ decks and a wingspan of around 770m. These are tiny ships in comparison. Most likely build after the fall of Romulus.
They maybe calling them warbirds but they seem more like a fleet of corvettes. Not really big and only strong in numbers.
And if they have to take 218 of them to make sure a assumingly lightly defended planet if destroyed they can't pack much of a punch-
I think the small design if fitting for ships build in a recource deprived romulan free state, build in secret
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u/Coolsbreeze Mar 20 '20
So androids can now mind meld? Okay makes perfect sense...
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u/anima-vero-quaerenti Mar 20 '20
I think Cyborg might be a better definition then Android at this point.
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u/Listener42 Mar 19 '20
Everyone is saying AI Soong is Lore, but Lore's body would have been destroyed on the Enterprise D, wouldn't it? We haven't see in it since then, at any rate.
Y'know who else we haven't seen, that we need to see again? Number One. He needs to go on the mission with Picard next season.
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u/bardbrain Mar 19 '20
I always assumed Lore's body was sent to a secure Starfleet facility. They didn't keep B4 on the Enterprise-E.
Maddox may have stolen Lore's body on the way out or Lore might have had a contingency to escape and be reassembled.
They've been avoiding any mention of Lore so far which is strange. They didn't say he was in storage. They didn't say he was destroyed. They simply haven't mentioned him. It's almost suspicious.
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u/imisstoronto Mar 19 '20
Lore's recovered positron could have been the first Android positron Maddox used in his fractal cloning.
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u/bardbrain Mar 19 '20
Regarding Lore:
I'm flashing back to Maddox talking about cookied with Jurati. He said you don't replicate the cookies but the ingredients.
I wonder if his test case was creating Soong from Lore's neurons before risking Data's less plentiful and precious neurons.
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u/WhiteSquarez Mar 19 '20
Brent Spiner plays kind of a wonky intellectual in every non-Trek show in which he's acted. Typically, I find it clumsy and obvious.
But his part here was excellent. I literally forgot I was watching Brent Spiner and was intrigued by his character.
This episode had everything I wanted. I was smiling like a crazy person when the Borg cube showed up!
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u/i_kick_hippies Mar 19 '20
So, I've been trying to figure out if "Altan Inigo" is an anagram... this is what I have so far (thanks, internet anagram server):
A Giant Lion
I Tin Analog
I Gain Talon
No Gain Tail
An Oil Giant
I Lag Nation
It Gonna Ail
Nail In Goat
Anti Go Nail
Go In It Anal
At An Oiling
I Align A Ton
A Gnat In Oil
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Mar 20 '20 edited Mar 20 '20
Oh no!!! Not the dreaded Star Trek villain Go In It Anal!!!
Hopefully the crew brace themselves for the violence that is about to befall them!
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u/Madwand99 Mar 20 '20
So, why would these "ancient synths" create an "admonition" that created fanatical synth-haters out of any organics that saw the message, but tempted any synths seeing it into summoning the "ancient synths"? It doesn't make any logical sense for these "ancient synths" to create a message that would lead to the destruction of the modern synths they want to save.
The only logical explanation for this dual message is that both messages lead to the same outcome desired by the message senders: the destruction of synths. The message was formatted such that any synths that saw it would be tempted into summoning their own destruction.
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u/EaglesPDX Mar 20 '20
So why did Maddox leave this spot to go broke on Freehold?
I like the idea of Soongs son being Lore, perhaps he had created a biological synth body like Soji but it was too close to biological and it has aged and now he’s building a new better body but he needed Maddox. Maddox knew this and escaped. Now Lore needs Jurati to make it work. Of course Picard gets the body.
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u/DockingCobra Mar 20 '20
Anyone notice the voyager theme playing when seven reappeared on the borg ship?! Gave me chills
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u/bigsh0wbc Mar 20 '20
If Picard dies but at the hands of an enemy, I hope season 2 is like Into the Badlands : Worf and he just fights romulans in hand combat for the whole season
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Mar 21 '20
Lore is the "human" brother Altan. He has all the same mannerisms and emotions. Maddox had used him to help him with his work. Eventually Lore took over the Synth colony and Maddox had to run and took Daj and Soji with him, his final perfect androids.
No one has explained why Picard has been dreaming, why Daj had the inner urge to go to Picard in episode 1 or who her "mother" is that she was talking to.
All I hope is that however they wrap this up it isnt with having Picard die and his concious transferred into the golem. I like to think they will find a way to transfer Data's memories into it. Possibly from B4 who wasnt sophisticated enough to handle Data's download but the new body is.
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u/saviniencyrano Mar 21 '20 edited Mar 23 '20
Isn’t it beautiful how they always slip in a few notes of the Voyager theme when Seven has her key moments?
Edit: Check @ 15:40min in this episode and 36:25min in S01E05.
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u/baezizbae Mar 23 '20 edited Mar 23 '20
I still don't quite get how Narek managed to know exactly where the crew was going to even follow them through an unused Borg conduit last week, that's bugging me way more than it should. I know it was said "he must have extrapolated our position" but that very much sounds like something someone wrote just to brush what was a really confusing moment at the end of Ep8 under the rug.
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u/MJDiAmore Mar 23 '20
The only bit I didn't get re: Narek's ship is how he would know what to configure to survive the conduit.
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u/lopo30 Mar 23 '20
Why do Romulans need the armada to take out synths if they have hologram technology that can make armada in space and that does damage by shooting too ? Narek had it's ship cloaked and was using he's hologram ship to make damage and so on to Rios ship. How big exactly is the Borg cube ? If the flowers take out it'äs systems to fall in the planet then it should be extinction level event for the planet.
Never mind that the planet is desert like planet that had blue skies and no electric storms. There is so many star system in a galaxy and Romulans find that planet by electric storms and 2 red moons. How does this actually work if the planet was ssmaller then Earth to have so large moons orbiting it ?
Why Picard was drinking hes water alone and how he got there that he was needed to be called back to the group of others to start to talk about whats up.
Soong was an old man who made Data and Lore cause he didnt have kids and he's planet was destroyed by crystal entity. He even made he's wife and transfer memory in the droid body. Now he have a biological son that looks identical to him and dont know how to mind transfer to droid body but is still a mad scientist ?
In the first episodes of the picard Borg cube had population of workers that now are mysteriously gone. Why we needed to have one women in the start of the season like we see her again in the show but was in borg cube.
There is like all of the bad guys well bad girls as there is only few male in this show. Mostly all cults are based on women. Romulan super secret 1000 years old cult that hates androids and then there is amazon warrior women cult that the Elron is from. All admirals and captains of star fleet we have seen are only women. Seemed like the syntsh home planet had more women too but that makes sense more cause this new soong is a male and why would he make more male synths.
this show is full of plot holes and nothing gets any explanation. Star Trek have well established universe so why not build on it all new star trek shows and not make them totally different. Copy other shows and games and go way too much dark and very off the utopia it was. Times goes on but 20 years half the galaxy wont change so drastically.
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u/Ghost_Stark Mar 20 '20
If something like the Borg Cube crash land on a small planet, nothing happens? The AI twins doesn't reacts - still plays 3D chess... hmm... They must have considered it an attack, otherwise why five orchids were sent out? Still busy sweeping floors.
Also, the planet supposedly have never ending electric storms. No, so calm and balmy.
Sigh.
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u/jlculbert Mar 19 '20
I thought we had made it through an episode without hearing the f* word ... and then I ran Rios' exclamations after Narek starting shooting at them in Capallius orbit through the universal translator (I mean, Google Translate). 🙂
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u/Bruce-- Mar 20 '20
I thought we made it through an episode without seeing something grotesque, then "and here's a decaying fox."
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u/alex66613 Mar 19 '20
Goddamit, I'm in withdrawal after WW ep. 1 and BCS ep 5, and they are delaying Picard exactly now!
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u/FrequentHamster6 Mar 20 '20
I see that nobody asked the question yet, and it baffles me. How is it possible for an android to do a vulcan mind meld??? Since when are androids telepaths aswell???????
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u/bardbrain Mar 20 '20
Many psychic powers can be trained in Star Trek lore. Garth of Izar learned how to shapeshift as a meditation technique.
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Mar 20 '20
Hey guys,
Wanted to know if I need to watch or read anything before starting Star Trek: Picard.
My only exposure to the Trek Universe has been the movies, that I enjoyed and Star Trek: Discovery that I really enjoyed.
Thanks!
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u/Mentioned_Videos Mar 20 '20
Videos in this thread: Watch Playlist ▶
| VIDEO | COMMENT |
|---|---|
| http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46ec8WnBHes | +2 - Did you miss this? "950 Years from home" |
| http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUofwyWu87o | +2 - for Easter eggs and breakdowns. |
| http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6u8QIqLSmU | +1 - The Mass Effect Synthesis Ending called... |
| http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As0F9Bq2kGk | +1 - The whole Admonition thing reminded me so much of Mass Effect 1's Prothean vision. Initially it made no sense but it needed the right key to properly be decoded into a warning with a location. |
| http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQFvUQA4p4U | 0 - This episode in a nutshell: |
| I'm a bot working hard to help Redditors find related videos to watch. I'll keep this updated as long as I can. |
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Mar 21 '20
I'm assuming that Brent is playing Lore with a new face, and Sutra was made from his neurons, not Data's.
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Mar 21 '20 edited Mar 21 '20
I know original sci-fi concepts and tropes are hard to come by but, man, they've seriously borrowed a lot from Mass Effect and Elite:Dangerous for this, haven't they?
Also, unless something happens to her before the end of this episode or the next, I think they are opening things for a Seven-led show captaining her own ship/crew. Jeri is the right age for a believable Captain, and she probably needs the work. It's also just enough to be like 'see, we care about old fans too!'
Finally, how can you have a conversation about 'the logic of sacrifice' and not mention the Vulcan (as made famous by Spock) adage "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."? Are they fucking with us? Did they watch Star Trek at all?
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u/richardtallent Mar 23 '20
A few thoughts:
Seeing all those golden faces, now we really understand the "yellow and pink" orchid reference! Soji/Dahj and Sutra/Jana.
Like others have surmised, I'm convinced that "The Admonition" is a test to see if an artificial species, when threatened, is ready to join a peaceful federation of artificial life, or if they, like Control and The Borg, are just hell-bent on asymmetric destruction in the name of survival. I do think it may have a connection with The Borg's origin. Possibly another philosophical "split" like the Vulcans and Romulans.
I was kinda waiting for Picard to start yelling "How many people does it take before it becomes wrong? HOW MANY?!?"
I predict the Borg ship can be reconfigured into a smaller, undamaged cube, and Seven will lift off and hold off the Romulans for a bit. Might even assimilate them (temporarily of course).
I'm not convinced that Soon is Lore. Why would he need a new body? Why would he appear "old"? (Ok, yes, Spiner is older, but they de-aged him for the dreams.) If he's not Lore, I think he could still be an android, created in Data's likeness, and like Soji and Dahj, unaware of his origin.
Sutra is said to have studied Vulcan philosophy. Surak was an extreme pacifist. Surely she will be persuaded by Syrrannite logic at some point?
It was a crowded episode, but Alison Pill shined in some of her scenes. I love how her character has developed here from (by my memory) a very similar one she played on The Newsroom to something a lot more layered.
I don't think the new body is for Picard or a new Data. I think that's the 5th Queen, and Agnes will be the one responsible for bringing her to life to, somehow, help save the day. It's her redemption.
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u/stannc00 Mar 23 '20
If “Soong” had really aged then the synths on the planet would have seen wrinkles before. Lore didn’t think of that.
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Mar 23 '20
I think instead of Lore coming back we are going to find out why Lore was like he was and why Data was like he was.
Each synth is made as a twin, Data and Lore weren't as Soong was still figuring it out. So one got all bad the other got all good. So the yellow eye synths on the planet are all twins, they have to be created like that, akin to quantum entanglement. One one twin dies it pushes the other one over the edge, to act more like Lore. When both are alive they keep each other in balance.
Unlike Soji and Dhaji, they are the imperfect perfection. They have the ability to be both to balance both sides of themselves in one. The crazy Romulan lady on the Cube kept asking which one was Soji.
There have been hints about this all the way through I think and there is still a lot more to learn. Is also think they are going I that direction of you look at the main Q plot line from the Voyager books that Kirsten Bayer wrote. Also this whole synths watching reminds me of the Cealier.
P.s. I was done with this show, but stuck with it as my partner did. I'm glad I did. There is a lot more subtle story telling going on.
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Mar 24 '20 edited Mar 24 '20
Liked when Sutra said "Fascinating" after the mind meld , most of the easter egg youtube reviews missed that
Also another missed egg though guessing it is mentioned multiple times here is Alton Inigo's initials
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u/soupisgoodfood42 Mar 24 '20
When the synths phone home, I reckon the Borg will show up.
Any reason this can't happen? The Borg exist in many galaxies and have also time-traveled, correct?
They've been stuck as cyborgs in TNG, so surely they'd be interested in any revolutionary synth tech, enough to go through all the effort.
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u/BenZed Mar 24 '20
I don't think it's Soje that's the destroyer.
I think it's the one who did the mind meld.
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u/MagicalHamster Mar 24 '20
So will synth Picard be played by a younger actor in season 2?
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u/rcannon25 Mar 25 '20
Did anyone else feel like the Borg Cube showing up all grandiose and then immediately crashing was a waste of the Cubes potential?
IE: Cube taking on 20 Romulan ships and going out in a blaze of glory........ or surviving into the Seven spinoff. I mean they had 4 space flowers crash the thing!
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u/ItsTribeTimeNow Mar 19 '20
So this season is basically a reboot of the Augments storyline from Enterprise...
Those crazy Soongs...
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u/stevepic1901 Mar 19 '20
“We did it, Aggie... Soong and I, and you...”
Well played, Chabon, you magnificent bastard. Snuck that one in right beneath the cracks.