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u/CmdShelby Feb 06 '20 edited Feb 07 '20
"I know you from tomorrow.... Which sister are you?! The one who dies or the one who lives?! ... I know who you are! You're the end of all! You're the destroyer!"
Oh dear. It's all happened before and it'll all happen again.
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u/YYZYYC Feb 06 '20
Totally BSG vibes especially the mention of a Mandela and the ancient myths. Also Star Wars vibes with a Han Solo type best pilot for hire who is an outlaw etc
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u/MrFrode Feb 07 '20
For a rogue pilot in an unregistered ship he seemed awfully comfortable sitting Earth's orbit for an extended period of time.
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u/RobotFighter Feb 07 '20
With a big piece of medal in his shoulder, for some reason.
Should I fix your shoulder?
Na, I have a meeting with some guy.
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u/Brinyat Feb 07 '20
Hygiene is not his strength. Wouldn't that jumper stick to his open wound - yuk?
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Feb 07 '20 edited Feb 07 '20
Yes I mentioned BSG one or two episodes ago, I think Picard will find out he's a cylon lol. It would play nicely into the opening credits where he is being constructed from pieces of the universe.
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u/CmdShelby Feb 07 '20
That would be preferable to the Romulans-created-the-borg-in-the-past-with-Soji-as-borg-queen time travel theory that seems to be going around...
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u/Zizzzzzy Feb 07 '20
She calls her by a name that starts with S before the destroyer. Sounded like sential or something. If you listen closely to the background sounds, the restless (and seemingly connected) exborg in the room seem to be muttering the same name.
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u/DisinterestedOcelot Feb 06 '20
Romulans (or at least some) are touch telepaths (to some degree), hence the reaction to touch in this episode; maybe this is why they're so freaked out by synthetic life. They can't read them, so they refuse to believe they're alive, more like animated corpses.
A kind of telepathic uncanny valley effect.
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u/Tomb55 Feb 06 '20 edited Feb 06 '20
Might even go deeper than that. We know about a weapon that was used on Vulcan to harness feelings. (S7TNG; Gambit) So there's an understanding of tech from those cultures thats never been expored fully. Addtionally and this one is a stretch, Gambit would be a research episode for me if I were writing Picard....
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u/DisinterestedOcelot Feb 06 '20 edited Feb 07 '20
Yeah, I brought up Gambit in a silly fan theory the other day. It was a great pair of episodes, too.
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u/agent_uno Feb 07 '20
more like animated corpses.
And this is the reason we need Jeffrey Combs back! Reanimated corpses! Oh, and Star Trek!
Hope at least a few of you catch the non-trek reference! ;)
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u/serendipity_siren Feb 06 '20
I love that Hugh is in charge of the ex-Borg drones reclamation project. It's fantastic that they've brought him back for this.
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u/Narvarre Feb 08 '20
I guess it was, but I just didn't find him very memorable in this, I loved his episodes in tng and the character but this version seem so boring...he was just....there
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u/ChaosKittyXJ9 Feb 06 '20
Did you ever hear of the tragedy of Soji the Destroyer? I thought not. It's not a story Starfleet would tell you. It's a Borg legend.
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u/jetlightbeam Feb 06 '20
We in the future now. I'm loving this show way more than I thought I would, and I thought I'd really love this show.
That new ship is so different and yet so awesome. The EMH felt so good, and seeing Hugh as an older more in control former Borg is just, crazy.
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u/spidereater Feb 07 '20
I think it was ENH. Emergency navigational hologram. The fact that it looked like him reminds me of the doctors programmer. I wonder if this dude was such an amazing pilot they based the ENH on him and he was disgraced and his holo doubles were decommissioned.
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u/PalindromeDay Feb 07 '20
There was both an EMH that treated his shoulder, and an ENH and cleared some goop from somewhere. They had different accents (English and Irish I'm guessing).
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u/jetlightbeam Feb 07 '20
Oh that would make so much sense, I was really trying to figured out if they were the same actor or not, but It just came out so it wasn't on the internet. But you saying that makes me think it was the same actor.
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u/HolyCarbohydrates Feb 06 '20
“... I’m only hitching a ride to get to FreeCloud.”
YEAH OK. See you for the next 3 Seasons!
I would also love to have been a fly on the wall for the writers room “WE DON’T HAVE NEARLY ENOUGH NINJAS IN TREK” (regarding the next character joining the “fellowship of the ring” in the next PIC episode)
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Feb 06 '20
I liked Picard all but winking at the camera as he said "Engage!" I loved Raffi rolling her eyes.
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u/MrFrode Feb 07 '20
Raffi
I don't know if it was the direction, writing, or the actress but I really didn't enjoy the performance. I'm not exactly sure why.
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Feb 07 '20
Just to be blunt, I don't think she's very well acted. It was just not very subtle, or interesting. Plus the dialogue in Picard so far has been pretty brute force exposition. Putting that in the mouth of a mediocre actor makes it more obvious.
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u/losbullitt Feb 07 '20
It was jarring for me. From Starfleet HQ to Vasquez Rocks, the actress doesnt seem to change much. I found her more enjoyable toward the end; there was a sincerity that felt lacking, maybe a conviction that was otherwise absent?
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u/vixie84 Feb 07 '20
I don't mind her so far. It will be interesting to see how the character develops. I absolutely hated her calling Picard JL. Also she seemed to say it a lot! I sort of hope they drop that.
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u/Sparkly1982 Feb 07 '20
The only other thing I remember her from is Law & Order: SVU and I never liked her character in that. I always assumed it was because they didn't quite treat the background characters the same as the leads on that show back in those days, but her performance in Picard is so similar, I'm beginning to wonder whether the actress just isn't my cup of tea.
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Feb 07 '20
I fully teared up when he said it. It's been too long.
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u/j8emusic Feb 07 '20
Me too
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u/RemoErdosain Feb 07 '20
Me three. Now waiting for a few "make it so", and we're certainly going to need at least one "energize".
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u/Pinchaser71 Feb 07 '20
I was yelling at the tv saying “Here it comes... SAY IT, SAY IT!!! YES!!! THERE IT IS!!! Meanwhile the wife was just staring at me like WTF? She was probably thinking to herself “All I have to do is say “ENGAGE!”to get him excited?” Jokes on her though, when Picard says it he’s not talking marriage like she did.
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Feb 06 '20
Engage
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u/Isketam Feb 06 '20
That hand gesture, the not-so-subtle of TNG theme near the end, this episode is perfect.
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u/donbagert Feb 06 '20
Note how Rios was waiting for Picard to give the word before proceeding, even though he knew that Picard wasn't intending to do it! Jean-Luc coming to the realization that he wanted to say it was good too.) This moment came off much better than when the trailers showed it. (And yes, Picard was right - Rios is indeed Starfleet, through-and-through.)
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u/dino101010 Feb 07 '20 edited Feb 07 '20
So I wasn't the only one in the fraction of a second before he said it, thinking, "Come one, come on, dooo it...Dooooo itttt ..."
Right?
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u/mrbumbo Feb 06 '20
That setup for Engage was perfect. The timing. Great meaning in that little scene after the conversations about space with the Romulans aides.
Hugh in charge! Same actor too. Now to rewatch a few TNG.
Meanwhile, I feel Allison Pill’s Dr. Jurati is being setup to be a sleeper agent or even working for Commodore Oh. No background check or anything. She may have a tracker implanted. Who knows? Raffi suspects everything.
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u/WhiteSquarez Feb 06 '20
Yeah, I feel the same way about Jurati. There is no point showing the brief encounter between her and Oh if it wasn't going to be significant later.
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u/mrbumbo Feb 07 '20
A little suspect that she shows up right when the barely competent Romulan hit squad shows up. Lucky coincidence or undercover ditz?
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u/Fredredphooey Feb 07 '20
Oh is blackmailing her or promised her freedom to build synth. Probably the latter.
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u/BruteSentiment Feb 07 '20
Dr. Jurati is absolutely a plant. “I’m a terrible liar”? Between that line and the Background Check, that’s the kind of subtlety I’d expect from early ‘90’s television writing (or Riverdale writing).
The fact it’s so, so very obvious makes me hope it’s a double fake out.
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u/ninjasaid13 Feb 06 '20 edited Feb 06 '20
Those big oak beams, heirloom furniture. Yeah, I-I'd show you around my estate, but it's more of a hovel, so that would just be, you know, humiliating.
I thought the future of a post scarcity society, we don't have to worry about being poor or anything like that.
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Feb 06 '20
Yeah, this was very jarring. I mean presumably not everyone gets a chateau to retire to but neither do they get stuck in a hovel.
That and Oh’s ridiculous drug store sunglasses had my eyes rolling.
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u/xeonicus Feb 07 '20 edited Feb 07 '20
Well, post-scarcity typically just means that people have abundant (and typically free) access to most common goods. For example: food and medicine. It does not guarantee everyone in the world a mansion, happiness, or marriage to a super model.
Raffi was fired from Starfleet but it wasn't a job she needed to live. She didn't get a paycheck. She did it for fulfillment. In a post-scarcity economy that is typically what jobs are. Picard didn't retire to a chateau because he was an Admiral, it was his family's vineyard.
If Raffi wanted a mansion she probably could have replicated the materials and had it constructed, but it seems she was wrestling with personal demons for years and living in mansion wasn't actually something she cared about.
The ban of synths may have also had an economically impact as they were likely used in the workforce. Their economy now probably relies predominantly on non-sentient robots and perhaps there is even an underclass of humans that may have to resort to paid labor.
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u/eight_ender Feb 07 '20
I agree. It kinda invoked to me of the concept of "basic" in the Expanse series. Enough govt assistance to keep you fed, healthy, and at a fairly high standard of living, but not enough for luxuries.
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u/coolstorypro Feb 06 '20
"Maybe it was set to stun". I like her.
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u/doublegreek Feb 07 '20
I don’t trust her at all.
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Feb 07 '20
"Okay, so we need you to go with him and act like you're spooked and secretly keep tabs on him. How well can you play gullible and naive and afraid?"
In a weird way, if they do that, it's a kind of continuity because that's a plot trope that feels dated enough to be on TNG-era television.
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u/Brinyat Feb 07 '20
I reckon she is one of a second set of twins. Dahj's attackers asked 'where are the others'.
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u/WhiteSquarez Feb 06 '20
She is my favorite new character.
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u/agent_uno Feb 07 '20
She’s gonna be a huge plot-turning device at some point. I just don’t know if she’ll betray Picard or help him. But its definitely nowhere where in between.
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u/ozwozzle Feb 07 '20
I didn't even notice that Rios and EMH was the same actor. I probably shouldn't be a witness in court.
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Feb 06 '20
Is it me or are the Romulan death squads a bit ridiculously incompetent? Like, tvtropes level incompetent.
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u/PalindromeDay Feb 06 '20
Also, are they planning to tell anyone at Starfleet, or anyone, about the 5 dead Romulans at the chateau? Wouldn’t that corroborate Picard’s story pretty quickly.
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Feb 06 '20 edited Feb 06 '20
But they're self-disatomizing, or something.
In the context of the episode, since he just had a chat including the possibility of Starfleet infiltration or collaboration, it can make sense. But that particular scene could (should) have been done better.
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u/ZeroBANG Feb 06 '20
Picard saw the romulan that killed Dahj do this before, he should be aware that they can do this and he has 2 ex-Tal'Shiar agents as house keepers who should expect something like that, scan the guy while he is knocked out, remove the self destruct thingy or get that doctor guy from last episode over here before you wake the romulan up and let him remove the self destruct thingy...
heck even better yet, call the pilot guy in orbit, he has an EMH!Beam that romulan up, interogate him on the ship, and in the same moment you are out of harms way, because there is totally not an operations room with monitors observing the outcome of this "stealth" attack, ordering a drone strike as plan B or something more final, to just blow up the entire vineyard, i mean it burned down once before in Generations, wouldn't be too hard of a sale to just say it burned down once more and they all died, you even got your Starfleet Security moles that can falsify any scans and wipe every evidence away. And that CNC lady has a personal beef with Picard anyway, acts like he shot her dog or something, very professional disagreement i must say.
No... lets just sit around and interrogate the guy right then and there, maybe drink some tee until he wakes up...
but even after the guy self destructed, Picard has a bunch of Romulan rifles, a bunch of dead romulan bodies and a lot of bullet holes in his walls that should clearly have a romulan weapons signatures.
There is too much evidence for even this bitchy Starfleet CNC Admiral to ignore all this, and SHE told him to do what he does best GO HOME! ...which is exactly what he did and then there were "secret romulan assassins" ...best argument to force his re-instatement but naaah.
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Feb 06 '20
They’re like stormtroopers, they’re only as competent as the plot needs them to be.
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u/ckwongau Feb 06 '20
Two former officer of Rumulan Tal Shiar is protecting Picard , that even the odds a bit .
And who would expected Picard's home would be full of energy weapon , hidden under the table and lots other place .
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u/CassRMorris Feb 06 '20
I'm now picturing Laris and Zhaban moving in, taking a look at the chateau's "security", and just being like, "Ohhh, no no no, we're gonna... we're just gonna make a few changes, don't you worry, won't even notice them."
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u/thefluffybessie Feb 07 '20
Their attack was merely a ploy to insert the doctor into Picard’s mission. No other explanation why they were so incompetent.
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u/CmdShelby Feb 06 '20 edited Feb 06 '20
It's not you. They out-numbered Picard&co 2 to 1, they had full body protective gear and disrupters set to kill but they couldn't take down a single person not even an old man. Not that I wanted any harm to come to the good guys, I just think it could have been better written; like maybe they could have made it so that for whatever technical reason (like the chateau's security), only one ZV operative could penetrate the inside of Picard's residence, and then have a big struggle involving all four of them just to take down one guy. That would have been more believable.
Narak is an incompetent synth-hater and double agent too.
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u/DefenderOfDog Feb 06 '20
The armour did nothing one got stabbed and most got shot
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u/ZeroBANG Feb 06 '20 edited Feb 06 '20
You mean the romulan biker gang?
Nah seriously, if this was even remotely a military operation, where is the supervisor on the radio who observes the situation, beams in backup, beams out hurt / dead soldiers etc.
It is like these "death squads" only consist of the 3 or 4 people that beam in and there is no backup or anything.
There would be a cloaked Romulan Warbird in orbit or some secret facility in infiltrated Starfleet that would monitor the situation and make sure the attack was successful.
And that applies to all 3 times this romulan biker gang showed up.
This is just incompetent writing, tell these writers to watch a few Seasons of Homeland and Seal Team to get at least a vague feeling for how military operations work on the back end.These are not death squads, these are kamikaze squads.
And just like Stormtroopers they can't hit anything because of the silly helmets.These guys could have personal Shields, cloaking devices, SciFi-sniper rifles from miles away. They are supposed to be Assassins.
Secret Assassins at that, they would not use standard Romulan Rifles, they would not hide under biker helmets or walk around in black combat gear, they would look like Starfleet Security, use Starfleet Phasers etc.
Picard could have taken the captured romulan, the security footage and all the romulan rifles, beam all that directly to Misses Bitch Starfleet CNC from last episode and she would have living proof of what Picard said.
Noo... lets go ahead with that insanely dangerous off the books mission, because there is totally not a cloaked Warbird just waiting for Picard to leave the system and to explode him on this puny Civilian Ship.Heck even calling those guys a biker gang is insulting to the Sons of Anarchy, those guys were way more strategic than this stuff.
These Romulans are just amateurs.
...i can't take this stuff serious without switching my brain off.
(And since when do phaser pistols shoot blue laser bullets? Bad enough that the Romulans don't shoot green beams anymore but red laser bullets, and now Phasers don't do the yellow beams anymore either? Can these CGI people please watch a bit of Star Trek to see how this stuff is supposed to look like? These weapons look so awfully generic without the correct SFX applied.)
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u/RobotFighter Feb 07 '20
I like how the Dr just picks up a disruptor that one of the team must have accidentally dropped on their way into the house.
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u/FunnyWut Feb 06 '20
Is it me or does it look like they did some de-aging of Picard during that opening flashback scene?
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u/serendipity_siren Feb 06 '20
I noticed it too. Very subtle de-aging, well done.
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u/agent_uno Feb 07 '20
I definitely noticed it! He looked only a few years older there than in Nemesis, and way younger than he does “now”. I especially noticed it where Stewart’s jowls have fallen a little. That wasn’t there in that scene.
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u/froboydan Feb 07 '20 edited Feb 07 '20
I believe they’ve been doing de-aging for the entire show.
http://blog.trekcore.com/2020/01/interview-marina-sirtis-brent-spiner-returning-star-trek-picard/
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u/Nori_BB Feb 06 '20
It’s nice having two ex-Tal Shiar agents as your bodyguards at home!
I loved seeing them kick some serious ass!
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u/comment_redacted Feb 07 '20
I kept thinking, wow everyone in this house is an assassin. The two Tal Shiar retirees, Picard with all his hidden guns, the dog. Lol.
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u/PseudonymousDev Feb 06 '20
OK, I get it. She calls him J.L. The episode's writer didn't have to beat us over the head with how many times she called him that during their reunion.
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u/Trouser_Slug Feb 06 '20
I felt like that because to me, "J.L." doesn't roll off the tongue as easily as "Jean-Luc," so I don't think anyone would actually choose to say the initials over the name.
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u/PeaDock Feb 06 '20
I even felt like he said her name too much. It's a minor nitpick, but I found it be be forced. Two people who know each other don't use their given name that much in conversation.
Other than that I loved this episode.
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u/JamesyUK30 Feb 06 '20
When she called him JL... multiple times.... I just said outloud in the middle of the office on my lunchbreak 'What in the actual f**k'
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u/Sphynxian Feb 07 '20
I would like to point out that Raffi was more than likely Picard's chief of security and given that the flashback took place in 2385 and Star Trek Nemesis took place in 2379 we have six years wherein she could've built a strong relationship with Picard to the point that he both trusts her and is comfortable enough around her to allow that nickname.
Might I also add that after the end of All Good Things Picard swore he would never take his crew for granted again and not be distant from them and allow himself to be "part of the crew," which includes opening up to them and allowing these kinds of connections.
So, yeah. Maybe watch some Trek ;)
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u/JamesyUK30 Feb 07 '20
You know maybe it was just the actress but it sounded so forced, considering they were both in uniform and the fact he is an Admiral it just didn't sit right either. Your argument is purely based on what you 'think' happened and is no more valid than my reaction to a subordinate showing him such a lack of respect because I 'think' it wouldn't have happened.
And fyi I watched all the Trek, I didn't see ToS when it aired but did subsequently. I freely admit I am having a very hard time relating to Discovery era + TV it is all over the place imho.
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u/StevieMJH Feb 07 '20
I don't think he's upset about someone being close enough to call him JL, I think he's upset because it's a fucking stupid nickname for someone named Jean-Luc, which is even easier to say to boot.
Telling him to watch some trek for having an opinion is some serious 80s gatekeeping.
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u/serendipity_siren Feb 06 '20 edited Feb 06 '20
So... if Rios has an EMH and another hologram on his ship, does it mean holograms are not included in the synthetic life ban? Maybe we'll end up seeing the Voyager Doctor in a future season.
Also, I cackled when Rios refused the dermal regenerator. May be his stereotypical "bad boy" moment, but for me it worked.
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Feb 06 '20
Part of the reason they aren't is likely they are limited by where their projectors are located. I'm sure there are a lot of other reasons also.
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u/prism1234 Feb 08 '20 edited Feb 12 '20
Whether an AI is running on a posotronic brain attached to mobile body or running on a regular computer doesn't really matter imo if the end result is indistinguishable, but it seems to for Starfleet for some reason. But the EMH's pass a turing test even better than data does, since they appear to have normal human emotions, so if anything they are even better AIs than data, so I don't get why they wouldn't also be considered a synth in the same way. They are certainly more complete thatn the F8 type synths.
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u/Nightfall8472 Feb 06 '20
I can't help but think Picard is the reason CBS had such a fit and stopped Renegades from fully happening.
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u/rymerster Feb 06 '20
Great episode, the new characters are great including Rios hologram alter-egos. I figure he has at least 2 as the second was dressed differently and had a peculiar Scottish / Irish accent - must be a callback to James Doohan who sounded a lot like that.
Do not trust Dr Jurati at all! She turned up at a very convenient time, and as Raffi said, no background check done on her.
Was very tense during the fight at the chateau - I had a horrible feeling they might have killed someone off so I’m very relieved that they are ok. Was good to see grad they are tough cookies and loved that as former operatives they had the sense to have phasers stashed everywhere. They likely predicted that they’d be getting a visit.
The scenes with the Romulan ex-Borg people make me think back to some very early fan speculation about Dahj being a new Borg Queen. What else could be such a destroyer? I wonder if assimilated Vulcans also have difficulty readjusting after they are treated? The only other thing I can think of is that somehow they are aware that she is a synth, and of course synths destroyed the rescue fleet BUT that happened after they were assimilated, going by the number of days shown in the previous episode.
Clearly the program Soji was using to communicate with her extremely artificial and lying mother put her to sleep remotely somehow. I suspect she is on some kind of mission without knowing it.
Amusing comment from Laris about the Romulans with ridges being “northerners”.
Thoroughly enjoyed it, but again left frustrated that we have to wait a week for the next episode.
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u/TheRealDL Feb 06 '20
Amusing comment from Laris about the Romulans with ridges being “northerners”.
I do enjoy seeing the cultural differences.
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Feb 06 '20
Tuvok is the only Vulcan assimilated on screen, he did have a longer recovery than the others and possibly this incident led to his neural issues seen in Endgame.
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u/ZeroBANG Feb 06 '20 edited Feb 06 '20
Was very tense during the fight at the chateau - I had a horrible feeling they might have killed someone off
I was soooo glad the Dog wasn't in that scene... it would have been so easy for Picard to turn full John Wick right there. (would not have cared if one of the ex-TalShiar house keepers got killed, they aren't coming on the mission anyway).
Do not trust Dr Jurati at all! She turned up at a very convenient time, and as Raffi said, no background check done on her.
...possible, but with Alex Kurtzman? naah, you get what you see, he doesn't think outside of what is on-screen.
And as she said, she is a terrible liar... unless that was a lie. hmmh...6
Feb 07 '20 edited Feb 07 '20
I felt suspicious of her when she walked in carrying the gun, but not after that, until I read the posts here. If her being covert is as obvious as everyone seems to think it will be so anticlimatic when she reveals herself. I hope she is genuinely on Picard's side just for the sake of the writing.
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u/Ninzida Feb 06 '20
Amusing comment from Laris about the Romulans with ridges being “northerners”.
Actually, I wanted to comment on that. I think this might be foreshadowing differences between Romulans that go beyond ethnic differences. Throughout the series so far there have been a lot of Romulan characters. Maybe more than human characters. But there are also stark differences between their makeup design.
Northerners clearly have a very prominent forehead, like Picard's one Romulan companion, Zahban, but his other companion, Laris, clearly didn't. Also, Narek and Narissa clearly lack that distinctive feature even though they work side by side other stereotypically portrayed Romulans. And we know from Nemesis from the Romulan interaction with the Remans that there are many underprivileged social classes within Romulan civilization. Perhaps South Romulans were another underprivileged group.
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u/Lundorff Feb 06 '20 edited Feb 06 '20
Do not trust Dr Jurati at all! She turned up at a very convenient time, and as Raffi said, no background check done on her.
I was wary as well, but there is a short scene at 30:15 - 30:18 where we see her unease and worry, and it is solely for the audience benefit. None of the others are looking at her, which means it isn't a fake worry intended to tricky anyone.
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u/Ninzida Feb 06 '20
Rios's Accents:
His alter ego's are interesting, but I hope they execute it a little bit better. At this point I'm not even sure if the second alter ego, the Scottish one, IS an e.m.h. Also, that argument was weird. Rios' accent itself began to change and was kind of a mix between Scottish and American in the end.
I hope the actor isn't over reaching for this role. It was hard enough fighting against the cringe factor and keeping an open mind when the first e.m.h. showed up.
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u/SlowCrates Feb 07 '20
I started getting a firefly vibe from this episode. A rag tag crew who are operating outside the law. Who knows what kind of trouble they're going to get in.
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u/alwaysafairycat Feb 07 '20
Absolutely. My mind started murmuring, "Star Trek: Firefly."
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u/5nurp5 Feb 07 '20
while watching this, i remembered a critique of GoT season 8. briefly, the hypothesis was that GoT was written as a social drama. the individuals didn't count as much, that's why so many died, and yet the story continued. when D&D started to write, they changed it to a psychological/character driven drama. and suddenly there's plot armour. suddenly it's about character, and not their place in the society.
watching this episode made me think about TNG. while we definitely learned a lot about the characters and there was plenty of individual psychology, in my memories at least, i remember star trek being about bigger things. they find a society that has a particular problem, or custom that is the focus. or they are fighting borg, and borg is whole social issues, not just a threat.
how i feel about picard, is that it's about picard. he's not a character in a story, the story is about him. and the girl, i guess. it's about his past, his mistakes, and how now he is trying to make up for it. it's about a secret cabal that has completely infiltrated starfleet. it's not about the federation, it's not about exploration. and i think that's why i don't like it, besides the stuff i simply don't like (like the undetectable race camouflage taken from discovery, or the total dependence on nostalgia).
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u/DangerousFart Feb 07 '20
They mentioned the Q Continuum everybody!
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u/Animatethis Feb 09 '20
I geeked out hard when they said this. I seriously don't think they would have mentioned Q if they didnt plan on involving them in the story eventually!
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u/Tomb55 Feb 06 '20
I've had a chance to reflect on E1/E2 and I'm just really really happy with where this show is going. E3 just reinforced that. Initial watch suggested the pace is starting to slow, but then I reflect on it and this was another episode RAMMED with content.
I love the Picard/Raffi dynamic, how they elaborated on Picard's behavior post enterprise and how the federation basically went into self presvation mode at the expense of their ideals. (Sound familiar?)
Interesting take on mental health and holograms, not to mention the nice nod to Voyager.
The romulan arc is just great! Where the hell is that going? I don't know?
Do you? Do you? Do you?
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u/Vuiz Feb 06 '20 edited Feb 06 '20
The romulan arc is just great! Where the hell is that going? I don't know? Do you? Do you? Do you?
Yes, they're the actual good guys. They'll retake their rightful place in the galaxy, bring stability and peace.
Pax Romulana!
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u/DisinterestedOcelot Feb 06 '20
This episode is definitely the weakest of the three so far for me, with definite inconsistencies appearing already and mostly pointed out in this thread already as well. That said I did still enjoy it; I'm primed to enjoy shit Trek after many years, so I'm definitely primed to enjoy quite-good-with-problems Trek like this.
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u/ShrimpCrackers Feb 06 '20
I'll never understand why Starfleet security didn't beam down as soon as disruptor or phaser fire was shot around the Picard residences. Those things have been glaring holes.
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u/Ninzida Feb 06 '20
Well they did disable the alarms apparently. So one would presume that there are safety precautions in place that were probably disabled.
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u/bringbackswg Feb 06 '20
Dialogue was nearly incomprehensible a lot of the times, lots of cryptic fluff that didn't really do anything. Listening to the dialogue felt like being in a batting cage with the pitch speed up too high. Sometimes it connected and sometimes it didnt. Kinda feels like the writers are too in love with themselves, the Aaron Sorkin syndrom in a lot of ways. I like a lot about the show but the way they're telling the story is frustrating and confusing in an unnecessary way IMO.
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u/Ninzida Feb 06 '20
I agree. So far its the weakest out of the three but still not bad. I did end up watching that fight scene more than a few times. It was well choreographed, with all three on the verge of defeat at one point, and it was funny to watch Picard and his Romulan friend get flipped.
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u/bearhoon Feb 06 '20
I'm rather surprised that the pilot fellow was smoking. They don't often let the good guys smoke on TV these days.
Maybe it doesn't count because it was a Cigar. Just hoping he doesn't turn out to be a secret baddie who betrays Picard.
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u/TheRealDL Feb 06 '20
Cigars and tequila, Snakeleaf and wine... scotch... Humans are creatures of habit and excess, even in the 24th Century.
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u/YYZYYC Feb 06 '20
I have secret baddie vibes from Dr jurarti and her timely entrance at the chateau after her meeting with the Commodore
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u/CmdShelby Feb 06 '20
These aren't just normal good guys. They're edgy, grim-dark good guys with a chip-on-their shoulders cos Starfleet wronged them.
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u/Averagebuddha Feb 07 '20
"I don't know how much it costs" "I'm very expensive"
So Is there money or not? Latinum maybe? some sort of currency?
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u/wOlfLisK Feb 07 '20
My theory has been for a while that the federation has no official currency but even in a post scarcity world, there's still trades and deals going on, especially for services such as chartering ships, hiring crews, renting hotel rooms when visiting Vulcan on your honeymoon etc. It wouldn't ever come up on a starship like the Enterprise or even on a station like DS9 but it would still be there on planets like Earth and Mars.
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u/2020_X-Ray_Vision Feb 07 '20
Does Raffi live where Kirk fought the Gorn?
Self-update: yes, both are filmed at Vasquez Rocks.
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Feb 07 '20
Anyone else seeing a streak of darkness worthy of the best Sisko in Starfleet?
Erasing records of Discovery sort of makes sense, a bit, in context. Future-prevention and all, with an active night-omnipotent killer AI and time travel.
Erasing records of some individual missions and actions, once again, makes some sense. Not everyone needs to know about whale probes or how close the Borg really came to winning in first contact.
But Picard/Rios make it seem like more than just an Enterprise thing. Like erasure is a common thing. I got a distinctly Stalin-esque vibe off of it- like embarrassing or sensitive information would likely get one erased, literally, and perhaps killed. This would also sort of explain why a lot of the secondary characters don’t necessarily go forward with as much acclaim as one would imagine.
Writing off an entire heavy cruiser and survivors, to the extent of disappearing them...I have questions.
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u/ngzEF Feb 08 '20
That reminded me a lot about the Pegasus incident, where Starfleet also kept that a secret for a long time because nobody should know that they were breaking the treaty which forbids development of cloaking devices. Even Riker was torn the entire episode if he should tell Picard about it. So it could be that said cruiser was destroyed on some kind of secret mission nobody should know about. Maybe even had to do something with the Borg, of course that is pure speculation.
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u/adamofgeekheim Feb 06 '20
Soooooo Dr. Jurati (during/post attack) is the commodore right? I know that there have always been complaints about Star Trek and bad tactics when there are things like transporters around and the ZV could have just beamed them all out of the building, But I'm willing to hand wave that away for the purpose of storytelling.
What I'm not willing to hand wave away is that scientist somehow got her hands on a rifle, or was even brought along on that attack for any reason. Noooope.
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Feb 07 '20 edited Feb 07 '20
That's when I was suspicious of her, when she walked in with the rifle, but it faded pretty fast. Now reading this thread itseems to be the general consensus that she's a spy for Oh, but with it being so widely suspected, if it's true then we are in for a huge disappointment, the biggest anticlimax in television history.
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Feb 06 '20
(1) If you've seen Romulans spit acid, you may want to treat your prisoner like an AO Pi sorority girl who drank six Long Island Teas and didn't have anything to eat beforehand. In other words, you and your friends should stay out of the path of projectile.
(2) Romulans who majored in literature and mythology sure like Settlers of Cataan.
(3) Did Michelle Hurd attend the Avery Brooks School for Dramatic Arts?
(4) When Picard gave the order to go to warp on Rios's ship, Rios's response should have been the same response Sean Penn had for Al Pacino in Carlito's Way: "Oh, I'm sorry is this your boat? No? Then shut the fuck up."
(5) I think that if these are Data's or Lore's daughters, then F8 and the other "plastic people" are the sons and daughters of B4.
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Feb 06 '20
Picard hired him and is leading when and where they go. Rios looked TO HIS CLIENT to give the order.
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Feb 07 '20
That, and the fact that his is (as Picard said) Starfleet through and through. He would wait for and accept orders from an admiral.
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u/Creativation Feb 07 '20
Note: The name of the ship Ibn Majid is a reference to this historical figure of note for his navigation and cartography - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_ibn_Mājid
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u/Zetman20 Feb 07 '20
I don't like that the supposed Vulcan Commodore is wearing sunglasses. Vulcans do not need sunglasses. This was established in TOS back in "Is there in truth no beauty?". It is not logical.
Even if she is actually Romulan it is still not logical because
A. she would still not need them. And
B. it would not be conducive towards maintaining a cover as a Vulcan.
Maybe they are going to develop a justification for this in later episodes, I hope they do. But I don't know that I trust the people making this enough to believe that. I have a feeling that this may well be a stupid, pointless error and a glaring contradiction of established fact. I hope that I am wrong.
Also I don't like that pilot character thus far. Mostly because he comes off as being a rogue, and I tend not to like rogues. I liked the original Star Wars mostly despite Han Solo, rather than because of him. I don't give a crap as to whether he or Greedo shot first.
Now there are things I do like and I do intend to keep on watching. But thus far it seems like this show was designed specifically to find small, little ways to aggravate me.
Though to be fair the first season of TNG tended to suck rather often as well so I shouldn't be surprised if this new show isn't entirely smooth sailing right from the start. Here's to hoping for fewer irritants in the future episodes.
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u/Makhiel Feb 07 '20
Vulcans do not need sunglasses. This was established in TOS back in "Is there in truth no beauty?". It is not logical.
"Vulcans don't need sunglasses" is like saying "Humans don't need crutches". And you're assuming the only reason she'd wear sunglasses was because she needed them.
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u/WhiteSquarez Feb 06 '20 edited Feb 06 '20
I liked this episode, just a bit less than the first two.
Raffy is a cool character in some ways, but her calling our beloved Captain by his first name was offputting. Especially how often she used his initials. I felt like there was no way she was able to create such a relationship with him and her seeming neuroticness doesn't endear me to her.
Raffy will be the deus ex Machina character, with her supposed ability to see patterns and such where others can't. I hope they don't abuse this or at least make it make sense.
This episode had a lot of acronyms, actually. Hugh referred to "E.B." and there was something else I can't remember now. It's not a typical thing to hear on polished television, but I realized that's how people talk IRL, particularly in situations that require the performance of routine tasks repeatedly.
Rios' ship is beautiful. I got goosebumps when I saw it turn to go to warp, especially with the TNG theme and the anticipation of "Engage."
Jurati deserves suspicion now. No way nothing happened between her and Oh; no point in showing that scene without it having some significance later. No way she wasn't seen by the death squad member walking into the room less than five seconds before her.
Rios and Picard don't have good chemistry. There. I said it.
Love the idea that he's his own EMH and whatever other holograms he wants. There's more to this, but it's almost a distraction instead of part of the main plot.
Everything on the Artifact is getting good. I love Soji. I love the connection between the Borg and Romulans. I love that there might be a temporal aspect to it.
It was great seeing Hugh again, but I'm confused about his reclamation status. He was already more independent than regular Borg because of his experience in TNG. It almost seems now like he's... faking it? Like he is still a Borg or something?
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u/CmdShelby Feb 07 '20
You don't remember in 'All Good Things..' J.L. said 'I should have done this a long time ago'? I think he meant it and was less distanced and private with his next crew.
Raffy had proof, she says so but J.L. was not prepared to hear her out
He said 'ex-Bs' meaning former Borg drones. And yeah it added a touch of realism
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u/groundrush Feb 06 '20
If I had to pick a character most like me: Raffi. The damaged veteran intelligence officer with a substance abuse problem. The gender is about the only thing that's different.
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u/serendipity_siren Feb 06 '20
I like that they're giving Starfleet veterans some of the same issues that present time veterans have. Battles in space affect people, too... and there's a limit to what a counselor can do.
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u/groundrush Feb 06 '20
Agreed. They touched on it in The Wounded, but this is far more nuanced and realistic. They’re able to get away with it without the censors picking it apart.
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u/Nori_BB Feb 07 '20
I agree, there’s a lot of rich material there for character driven storytelling:
loneliness, lack of social support, people not keeping in touch or calling to say hello.
feelings of disgrace over losing her place within the social structure/rank of the Federation
bitterness and anger, simmering over many years
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u/jomag12 Feb 06 '20
Solid episode! I REALLY liked the dual interrogation scene- and of course, "engage"! Couldnt help but get a little emotional with that one.
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u/jobsearchusa Feb 06 '20
Patrick Stewart is pretty great, amazing what he can do at his age. What is interesting an am undecided is that it switches from the old star trek by switching back and forth from the girls POV to Picard POV. Personally i like Patrick in every scene just the other scenes off world need to get me hooked.
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u/Basekid Feb 06 '20
Ah man, when that TNG music with a hint of TOS played at the end of the episode... Watched that like 3 times in a row.
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u/Pellaeonthewingedleo Feb 06 '20
"J L" that really annoys me
Another point: Did they forget in Star Trek the Federation and especially earth is a post scarcity civilisation where a big château no longer matter, nobody smokes and economic disparity and need no longer exist? Where living in a trailer is no point of "humiliation" anylonger? Where there are no drugproblems? Not to mention they are back on a money-based society again, or so it seems.
Why do "Vulcans" need sunglasses, their eyes have a second membranes (or something) to protect them from the sun. If the commodore wants to keep up her cover that was sloppy
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u/devriesd89 Feb 06 '20
SUNGLASSES! Really? Who is working props/set design for this show? I get this is hollywood fiction but to have so many 21 century items (ie sunglasses, green Exit signs, glass doors with push bar to open, a bland convention center used for the HQ of all of Starfleet.) its hard to believe we are watching something 400 years in the future. We are used to seeing bright colours, Laforge style visors, or diamond shaped doors or futuristic/weird looking furniture.
However, I'm still intrigued by where this story is going, and hope for the best.
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Feb 06 '20
Plus she’s a Vulcan! A dessert race. Why would a Vulcan need sunglasses on Earth?
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Feb 06 '20
Why exactly wouldn't there be sunglasses?Why would you need a future tech to replace something that works that simply?
I'm curious what you image replacing their function?
BTW eyewhere has been used before.
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u/supermechace Feb 06 '20
Was it just me or did the ex borg romulon flash her eyes like the synth before she said she recognized Soji?
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Feb 07 '20
I think her eyes teared up before that and it was just light reflecting off the tears. I could be wrong.
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u/trosis Feb 07 '20
These episodes are flying by. The music at the end when they broke orbit was perfect. Also love that there is an EMH on the ship.
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Feb 07 '20
Does anyone else thing that Doctor Jurati might be a spy after going to Picards right after being questioned by the romulans? She came in right as they were being attacked too.
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u/comment_redacted Feb 07 '20
Yeah. The more I think about it, I don’t think she is part of the core conspiracy. I am thinking the Commodore threatened her, or promised her access to the synth tech and fulfillment of her life’s dream, if she cooperated.
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u/newbie_01 Feb 07 '20
When the EMH starts bothering Rios from behind the book, Rios clearly exclaims "me cago!" That was very funny and unexpected.
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u/Dark_Tzitzimine Feb 07 '20
I like the flashback uniforms more than the current one
Future vape pens, lul
"Protip" You stop that right now
Haha of course the romulans would act like any of their own being assimilated was a dirty little secret
Ah, there's that The Picard spirit
I missed EMHs with attitudes, also I hope that reference is the sole Q-related thing in this whole series
Hi there obvious mole
Didn't learn their lesson from the first encounter, I see
Rios asking the question that matters
He's gonna say it... HE SAID IT
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u/Infiltrator41 Feb 07 '20
The allusions to wealth inequality on Earth with Raffis house and "cost" to hire folks in the lore were a bit jarring. Trying to filter it into my understanding of ST.
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Feb 08 '20
"cost" to hire folks
Well, I think private starships are going to cost a fortune to run and I doubt the Federation is going to provide resources to that level. There's probably state-funded transporters and taxi services (as we've seen) that are free, and presumably free transport off world etc. Plus, every starfleet ship will be maintained etc at cost for the Federation, but private ship ownership might be something that the Federation won't cover at all as they'd be prioritising fuel etc for the major ships/fleets.
Couldn't really comment on the wealth inequality though, having a home and food provided for is still pretty decent considering.
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Feb 07 '20
In response to the lack of cordiality between Raffi and Picard - "All Good Things..." exactly explains it.
He kept distance between himself and his crew, even his senior staff, probably because of what happened to Crusher. He may have had an affair with the wife of an officer he later sent to his death, then bringing word back to Beverly after.
This taught him a lesson he wouldn't soon forget. He never wanted anything like it to happen again. Finally, later in life (with some Q-therapy and more therapy after Q, no doubt) he learns it doesn't mean he can't have friends.
I think by the desperate late-night phone call for a ship he gives away how close he is to her. Plays her like a fiddle with the wine, too.
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u/Anjisan63 Feb 07 '20
Anyone know who the Actress was who played the reclaimed Romulan, Rahmda? Rahmda was the Romulan playing with the Romulan Tarot cards who Soji interviewed?
My guess? Robin Curtis. The actress who played Saavik in Star Trek III - The Search for Spock, and Star Trek IV - The Voyage Home.
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Feb 11 '20
Episode was great like the others; love the show; just don’t understand why Picard didn’t at least entertain the notion that the Romulans sabotaged their own rescue when Raffi re-told him about her suspicion.
Surely knowing all that has come out thus far since episode 1, he would at least entertain the notion and/or agree that it was a possibility...
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u/The_Facemelter Feb 07 '20
I loved the callback to Tapestry (S6, Ep 15) — the one in which young Picard gets stabbed in the heart — with the shard of metal in Cristobal’s shoulder. You can see the recognition in Picard’s face when he’s like, “Ah, I know this guy. I was this guy.” Fan service perfection.
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u/Nori_BB Feb 07 '20
I discovered a little more background on Commodore Oh's sunglasses. I thought it was really interesting. From an interview in Den of Geek:
Though she kept her Vulcan cards hidden, Tomita revealed one delightful secret about Commodore Oh — the origin of her sunglasses in that scene where she sneaks-up behind Alison Pill. Turns out, this was a small Easter egg connected to a very different Jean-Luc; the French filmmaker Jean-Luc Goddard, or, more specifically one actress, Anna Karina, whom Goddard worked with in several famous films like A Woman is a Woman and The Little Solider.
“It was an homage to her. To Anna Karina!” she says with delight. “I’m not sure whose decision was it, Akiva [Goldsman], Michael Chabon? I don’t know. I believe it said in the script that she wore sunglasses in Anna Karina-style. She was one of my favorite actresses, and it was extremely prescient because she passed away a short time later. I was so honored to embody a small part of her style.”
https://www.denofgeek.com/us/tv/star-trek/285702/star-trek-picard-who-is-commodore-oh
If one googles the old photos of Anna Karina with sunglasses, and compares them to the scene with Commodore Oh wearing sunglasses, one can definitely see the "Anna Karina-style" the filmmakers were trying to get at.
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u/thisiscotty Feb 06 '20
im guessing soon, we will see some green flashing status buttons in that cube
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u/Starbuck107 Feb 07 '20
I bet that zhat vash are made up of both Vulcans and Romulans
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Feb 07 '20
Did anyone catch the text in the synths eyes at the beginning?
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u/cjh_ Feb 07 '20
They were either hacked remotely or it was a timed execution of code already planted in the OS of the synthetic lifeform(s). Probably by the android hating Zhat Vash who have never been mentioned until Picard...
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u/Fredredphooey Feb 07 '20
There are three white men with dark brown hair and a scruffy beard. It was taking me a minute to sort out who I was looking at each time one appeared. So I call them Bieber, Irish, and Pouty.
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Feb 07 '20
And they look like Spock from discovery. Is there only one look in the future?
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u/carlinhush Feb 07 '20
I really enjoyed this episode this morning. I was especially looking forward to it as it was said that the Picard novel containing the back story could not be released until after episode 3 aired. I guess it must have something to do with Freecloud.
On the other hand, what's the deal with Agnes? She clearly has no idea what she is getting into. The way she is dressed in that lightblue blazer and the those pants, he way she reacted to Commodore Oh, to her killing the intruder in the château, the way she argued herself onboard, the way she smiled like a child getting ice cream when sat down, this seems to be just some science project for her. I am looking forward to her development throughout the mission.
Well, she neen't argue a lot for Picard to take her with him.
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u/KingsKnight96 Feb 07 '20
Why did Raffi get fired? If Picard resigned, wouldn't Raffi either take command of the ship (Verity?) or be transferred to a new ship?
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u/NoPacts Feb 07 '20
If you put your chips on a commander of whatever, you're in his boat, you sink with him. In regards to the story, I think that, and the cover up. 14 yrs later she says she has concrete evidence. So gotta blast her out too.
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u/wjw75 Feb 07 '20
I wonder if there's going to be a temporal thing here where Dr Jurati is somehow responsible for the origin of the Borg.
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u/FoxtrotsZulu Feb 09 '20
I kind of think the deep-dark hidden secret is that the Romulan state long ago learned that the major species that we know of the galaxy are all synthetic life forms created by the progenitors seen in holographic record in one of the TNG episodes...The Chase, I think it was.
And that the distinction between life and created life becomes indistinguishable. Such a fact would cast every state with deep ethnic and religious beliefs into turmoil.
Hence the hatred of the pursuit of synthetic life.
Maybe someone else has posted this theory in this thread?
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u/PitBullAteMyCorgi Feb 07 '20
Big stinky cigars and vaping pens? This is our enlightened future? Seriously?! 🙄
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u/chocolateteapot72 Feb 07 '20
Addiction to pleasure will always be a human trait, it even was adressed in TNG with crew playing the game that rewarded players with a jolt of joy.
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u/Dice_for_Death_ Feb 08 '20
Jurati got that Romulan disruptor rifle from where, again?
She's in league with them. Has to be.
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u/Guinness Feb 08 '20 edited Feb 08 '20
How much you think they got paid to show that very obvious long drag on a vape pen?
Holy shit that was painful.
Also the whole woe is me sad drama over “how DARE you try hard and use the only and last trick up your sleeve to get Star Fleet to go your way I lost my job because you resigned” is bullshit half assed writing. He literally sacrificed his entire fucking storied, decorated career to try and help you.
And you threw a goddamn toddler tantrum and ran off. And held a 14(?) year grudge.
UGH. Lazy writing. They could’ve perhaps spent more time on that whole drama fest and made it believable but no. That was like, 30 seconds of the show. Vaping included.
“Hey here’s a new character” Picard: I threatened to resign as the only shot I had left to help the thing you care about” “How dare you! I hate you how for 14 years while I run off to the desert, doing the exact same thing I accused you of doing 5 seconds ago!”
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u/[deleted] Feb 06 '20
"What happened in there, JL?"
"Well first off, don't ever call me that."